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AN_Inkling wrote:An exciting player, no doubt. I think the key questions are:
Is he better than White? I think yes, but not greatly. The main issue being what he does between hangers. Greater mobility than White will be an asset, but his overall output has been ordinary over his career despite the many highlights (avg. 14 disposals and 0.8 goals. White avg 1.1 goals and 1.5 in 2015).
Is Moore ready to play as second ruck? We shouldn't be fitting Howe and White into the same team so Moore needs to ruck. Can't do this for the whole year which means Moore will need to be rotated out or Howe played on a wing for some games.
What about the crumbs? All of Howe, Elliott and Fasolo love to fly for their marks, someone will need to stay on the ground.
Looks good, but Moore can't play out the year as forward/ruck so White or Witts will need to fit in at times. Are we too tall if we replace Fasolo with Witts/White in some games? Even if we are, pushing Howe to a wing is an option, but he's not proven very good in the position.
I don't actually think he'd be competing with White for a spot at all. I see him competing with Goldsack, Blair..etc. Howe is not a key position player, nor second ruck, he's a marking flanker.
With no sub rule next year, I don't want Darcy Moore playing ruck either, not in the center square anyway. With that forward line, assuming that Grundy starts in the ruck, I'd be picking one of Witts, White, Gualt or Mason Cox to start on the bench and they would play second ruck. If form or team balance dictated that we needed Goldsack instead, than I'd actually play Cloke in the ruck before Moore. But I think having a tall starting on the bench is going to be our regular set up.
You make a good point about crumbing. Both Fas and Elliot need to focus more on that area. I reckon they're both capable and Howe probably is too, to a lesser degree. But it'll be a matter of balance. Blair, Kennedy or Broomhead might push one of them out of the starting 18. Or maybe we draft a crumbing forward and he develops quicker than expected. I'd still like to have Howe on the list either way.
gobbles21 wrote:If there is one thing we have seen with former Melbourne players such as Jared Rivers, Colin Sylvia and most recently James Frawley, it's that no matter how good the system they are going to is... You can take a player out of Melbourne, but you can't take the Melbourne out of a player.
Once, they've been in that system their standards and decision making processes are totally effed.
Those 3 have all had large wraps at one point or another, and have gone to Geelong, Fremantle and Hawthorn, arguably the 3 best modern football systems in regards to structures and leadership, and all 3 have failed to live up to expectation. I have no doubt Howe will do the same wherever he ends up.
Very good points and I almost totally agree. Though I think that a lot of the wraps on Frawley were as a result of his dad's mates in the media. A good player, sure. But geez he was hyped up way beyond his ability
Hawthorn (and the 6-7 other clubs after him) don't chase a player and pay him $700,000 a year because his "uncle's" mates in the media build him up... The wraps are there cause he is talented and has ability. The fact is changing from the bad habbits inherited at Melbourne to a disciplined, team orientated structure is not an easy thing to do.
Look at even a bloke like Tom Scully, with only 2 years in their system and how far it pushed his development backwards when compared to the other kids who joined GWS fresh. Lucky for him, he was so young and time is still on his side to get those habbits out of their system. At the end of the day though, I wouldn't look sideways at anyone who has been in that Melbourne system. Once they've had more than 5 years in it, they are finished IMO
Domesticated_Ape wrote:I'm starting to warm up to this guy, he's got wonderful soft hands in the air, it allows him to take marks he has no right to.
He's 25, has played 100 games and kicked 80 goals, but a lot of those games were at half back and all of them were for Melbourne. So it's actually a really good return.
If you have a spare 12 minutes, do yourself a favour a watch this highlights package - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nONP3Gcj_RM
That's just from 2011-2013! He's a seriously exciting player with plenty of x factor and his set shot kicking looks ok in the video. Looks a better prospect than Karnezis ever was IMO.
Domesticated_Ape wrote:I'm starting to warm up to this guy, he's got wonderful soft hands in the air, it allows him to take marks he has no right to.
He's 25, has played 100 games and kicked 80 goals, but a lot of those games were at half back and all of them were for Melbourne. So it's actually a really good return.
If you have a spare 12 minutes, do yourself a favour a watch this highlights package - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nONP3Gcj_RM
That's just from 2011-2013! He's a seriously exciting player with plenty of x factor and his set shot kicking looks ok in the video. Looks a better prospect than Karnezis ever was IMO.
AN_Inkling wrote:An exciting player, no doubt. I think the key questions are:
Is he better than White? I think yes, but not greatly. The main issue being what he does between hangers. Greater mobility than White will be an asset, but his overall output has been ordinary over his career despite the many highlights (avg. 14 disposals and 0.8 goals. White avg 1.1 goals and 1.5 in 2015).
Is Moore ready to play as second ruck? We shouldn't be fitting Howe and White into the same team so Moore needs to ruck. Can't do this for the whole year which means Moore will need to be rotated out or Howe played on a wing for some games.
What about the crumbs? All of Howe, Elliott and Fasolo love to fly for their marks, someone will need to stay on the ground.
Looks good, but Moore can't play out the year as forward/ruck so White or Witts will need to fit in at times. Are we too tall if we replace Fasolo with Witts/White in some games? Even if we are, pushing Howe to a wing is an option, but he's not proven very good in the position.
I don't actually think he'd be competing with White for a spot at all. I see him competing with Goldsack, Blair..etc. Howe is not a key position player, nor second ruck, he's a marking flanker.
With no sub rule next year, I don't want Darcy Moore playing ruck either, not in the center square anyway. With that forward line, assuming that Grundy starts in the ruck, I'd be picking one of Witts, White, Gualt or Mason Cox to start on the bench and they would play second ruck. If form or team balance dictated that we needed Goldsack instead, than I'd actually play Cloke in the ruck before Moore. But I think having a tall starting on the bench is going to be our regular set up.
You make a good point about crumbing. Both Fas and Elliot need to focus more on that area. I reckon they're both capable and Howe probably is too, to a lesser degree. But it'll be a matter of balance. Blair, Kennedy or Broomhead might push one of them out of the starting 18. Or maybe we draft a crumbing forward and he develops quicker than expected. I'd still like to have Howe on the list either way.
You could make the argument that White/Cloke/Moore/Howe fit into the same forward line - Howe's potentially mobile and positionally flexible enough. I don't think the bench comes into that argument though; players, particularly bigs who don't need the rest, won't be spending large portions of the game on the bench even with the abolition of the sub.
I think at the right price Howe would be a fairly good signing for us. We currently have zero medium forwards ready to play seniors (I'm not counting Goldsack, but he's the closest), so he does fill a gap albeit for an optional player type. With the failed signing of Karnezis and now talk of Howe, it does look as if we've been at least looking for a medium forward.
I dunno about that. Every team will need at least 2 players who can play in the ruck each game. So the question then becomes, are we better off playing one of them out of a forward pocket, which will hurt our ability to chase and defend? Or should we go in small with a second forward who can ruck and sacrifice our forward structure when we need to rest our first ruck? Or should we sacrifice a resting position on the bench and play our two rucks in 10-15 minutes bursts in an effort to break the opposition ruckman by 3/4 time?
Different teams will use different tactics depending on the situations they're in at the time. We have two high quality young rucks and we'll probably want to get good use out of both.
The other thing to mention is promoting flexibility of position. Moore, Howe and White are all potentially capable of playing on a wing, in bursts. And I still have an odd fantasy that Grundy and Witts can both play in the center square as a double ruck combo. Cox and NicNat used to do it well.
And yeah, Howe comes in only at the right price. If he's after 500K or Melbourne want a top 20 pick, then we should pass.
Plenty of great full forwards have been around the 190cm mark or less.
Not that Howe has showed he could be one of them outside of his marking strength.
Yes I know the game has changed but it isn't for the better in a lot of ways and hopefully someday we see a coach take something from the past and make it new again and we return to the good old days of allowing a player who is a natural forward play in that role and not have to go chasing kicks across half back.
Like Cam said Howe as the leading full forward target with Cloke at CHF would seem the best use of him IMO.
I'm not sure that Howe brings much and would be surprised if he isn't after more than $450k but may be wrong.
Faz is a conundrum. He's our best forward when Cloke is out of the side and showed that several times this season, but rarely seems to perform when Cloke is playing and is the focal point.
One team, one dream - the Pies and this year's premiership
swoop42 wrote:Plenty of great full forwards have been around the 190cm mark or less.
Not that Howe has showed he could be one of them outside of his marking strength.
Yes I know the game has changed but it isn't for the better in a lot of ways and hopefully someday we see a coach take something from the past and make it new again and we return to the good old days of allowing a player who is a natural forward play in that role and not have to go chasing kicks across half back.
Like Cam said Howe as the leading full forward target with Cloke at CHF would seem the best use of him IMO.
That was when ruckmen were around 192 cms. In the modern game, KPP players, and even midfielders, are considerably taller than in years gone by.
He's a seriously exciting player with plenty of x factor and his set shot kicking looks ok in the video. Looks a better prospect than Karnezis ever was IMO.
