Grand Final #12 - 1981
Moderator: bbmods
Hafey coached when Collingwood had an open cheque book. I don't get why people make excuses for him - that was the worst period of our great club's history. The repeated choking was embarrassing and that has to be assigned to the bloke at the top. The rot started in 1977 with the Second Great Choke - blaming Carman, who didn't play, rather than the players who owned the game and then let it slip hopelessly for a draw set a bad precedent: if you lose (at whatever you do, in life), you take accountability, reflect, work out what needs to be different next time and move forward. It took dumping Hafey (which should have happened before he emptied Carman out at the end of 1978) and 8 more seasons to fix the team's very broken psychology.
If you look at what Hafey "achieved" at Richmond, his real skill was to turn up and coach them when Hart, Bartlett, Bourke, Clay and Barrott (a largely-forgotten figure, now, because of the relatively small number of games he played for a variety of reasons - but a barn-storming centreman who presented the same sort of difficulties for the opposition as De Goey does) were at their peak. Bringing in Ian Stewart to take over from Barrott didn't hurt, either.
It's no coincidence that Richmond's 1967 to 1980 successes were built on the back of some genuinely epoch-defining talent. Even Tony Jewell couldn't stop Bartlett running riot against us in 1980 - and that was when he was done as a midfield runner and played out of the forward pocket.
That's not to say that there weren't some wonderful individual Collingwood efforts in 1981. Mark Williams' third quarter heroics stand out like a beacon as one of the all-time great attempts to carry a team personally to victory but, as consistently happened from 1970 to 1981, too many players went missing when it mattered. It isn't the losing that's the problem - Collingwood's close losses in 1964, 1966, 2002 (and the earlier finals in 2022) were disappointing but they were in real arm-wrestles that might have gone our way - the Hafey 1977 (draw), 1979 and 1981 debacles all came (as the Great Choke of 1970 had done before them) despite Collingwood being plainly the dominant team before falling down when it counted.
Ultimately, that's why the present coach has brought success. He takes personal responsibility for the team's failures and expects the players to do so, too. It doesn't have to be a culture of finger-pointing and blame (indeed, that's the very opposite of what drives success) but recognising that when you lose it is because you lost - as distinct from because the wind was bad, Carman was suspended, the boundary umpire wasn't watching etc etc - is both obvious and at the same time elusively fundamental to getting the job done.
If you look at what Hafey "achieved" at Richmond, his real skill was to turn up and coach them when Hart, Bartlett, Bourke, Clay and Barrott (a largely-forgotten figure, now, because of the relatively small number of games he played for a variety of reasons - but a barn-storming centreman who presented the same sort of difficulties for the opposition as De Goey does) were at their peak. Bringing in Ian Stewart to take over from Barrott didn't hurt, either.
It's no coincidence that Richmond's 1967 to 1980 successes were built on the back of some genuinely epoch-defining talent. Even Tony Jewell couldn't stop Bartlett running riot against us in 1980 - and that was when he was done as a midfield runner and played out of the forward pocket.
That's not to say that there weren't some wonderful individual Collingwood efforts in 1981. Mark Williams' third quarter heroics stand out like a beacon as one of the all-time great attempts to carry a team personally to victory but, as consistently happened from 1970 to 1981, too many players went missing when it mattered. It isn't the losing that's the problem - Collingwood's close losses in 1964, 1966, 2002 (and the earlier finals in 2022) were disappointing but they were in real arm-wrestles that might have gone our way - the Hafey 1977 (draw), 1979 and 1981 debacles all came (as the Great Choke of 1970 had done before them) despite Collingwood being plainly the dominant team before falling down when it counted.
Ultimately, that's why the present coach has brought success. He takes personal responsibility for the team's failures and expects the players to do so, too. It doesn't have to be a culture of finger-pointing and blame (indeed, that's the very opposite of what drives success) but recognising that when you lose it is because you lost - as distinct from because the wind was bad, Carman was suspended, the boundary umpire wasn't watching etc etc - is both obvious and at the same time elusively fundamental to getting the job done.
Pies4Shaw, thank you for your interest. However, I disagree with your points regarding Tom Hafey. You wrote that when he coached, Collingwood had "an open chequebook". They may have had a chequebook, but it wasn't open. That's why we missed Bernie Quinlan. Fitzroy outbid us by $5,000. Imagine Bernie Quinlan in our side in 1979, or even 1978. They did pay $100,000 for Alan Edwards and he did well until he was badly injured. What other big fish did Collingwood acquire during Hafey's tenure?
Yes, Hafey had some brilliant players at Richmond, but Rose had some brilliant players at Collingwood. Hafey showed what he could do if he had the players. And, we can argue about Phil Carman but I regard the criticism of him to be valid. He struck Michael Tuck behind play for no accountable reason. Our forward line in the 1977 draw was Peter Moore. That was it! Add Phil Carman and we're premiers. You say that they choked but they did overcome a 7 points deficit against a rampaging North Melbourne and were in attack when the siren went. I don't regard that as choking. Anyway, thanks for the discussion.
Yes, Hafey had some brilliant players at Richmond, but Rose had some brilliant players at Collingwood. Hafey showed what he could do if he had the players. And, we can argue about Phil Carman but I regard the criticism of him to be valid. He struck Michael Tuck behind play for no accountable reason. Our forward line in the 1977 draw was Peter Moore. That was it! Add Phil Carman and we're premiers. You say that they choked but they did overcome a 7 points deficit against a rampaging North Melbourne and were in attack when the siren went. I don't regard that as choking. Anyway, thanks for the discussion.
Any criticism of what Carman did in the Second Semi needs (and needed at the time) to be kept separate from the dreadful effort in the drawn Grand Final.
Collingwood had a week's rest, twice, while North played 4 games in a row in that finals series (ultimately, of course, 5 in a row). Collingwood managed to squander a 27 point 3/4 time lead against a team that could only manage 4 goals in three quarters of football (and none for about 70 minutes from the first quarter until 3/4 time). 12 scoring shots to 1 in a final quarter by a team that was playing its 4th hard game in a row. Carman had nothing to do with Collingwood kicking 8 unanswered goals acrioss two entire quarters to lead 9.12 to 4.15 at 3/4 time. Equally, he played no part in the ensuing choke.
Assume, for a moment, that Carman had been injured and unavailable on that day. What excuse could then be given for the inexcusable final quarter? All the "if onlys" in the world can't expunge the putridity of that capitulation.
The previous year, North played off in the Grand Final against Hawthorn. Hawthorn led by just 10 points at 3/4 time but North managed only 2 behinds in the final quarter, as Hawthorn ran away with it comfortably. After 4 games, they just ran out of legs at the end of the 1976 Grand Final.
It was a breathtakingly awful spectacle to watch them resurrect themselves in the last quarter of 1977. They had irreplaceable, gun players missing (Melrose, Keith Greig) and still ran all over us at the end. Carman's absence is just an excuse, not an explanation.
To draw this back to the subject of 1981, Collingwood let the same thing happen as in 1977. At one stage, they led 10 goals to 6 - but managed 2 points in the last quarter as Carlton kicked 6 unanswered goals from late in the 3rd. The putrid last quarter performance looked a lot like the putrid last quarter of the 1977 drawn Grand Final.
Collingwood had a week's rest, twice, while North played 4 games in a row in that finals series (ultimately, of course, 5 in a row). Collingwood managed to squander a 27 point 3/4 time lead against a team that could only manage 4 goals in three quarters of football (and none for about 70 minutes from the first quarter until 3/4 time). 12 scoring shots to 1 in a final quarter by a team that was playing its 4th hard game in a row. Carman had nothing to do with Collingwood kicking 8 unanswered goals acrioss two entire quarters to lead 9.12 to 4.15 at 3/4 time. Equally, he played no part in the ensuing choke.
Assume, for a moment, that Carman had been injured and unavailable on that day. What excuse could then be given for the inexcusable final quarter? All the "if onlys" in the world can't expunge the putridity of that capitulation.
The previous year, North played off in the Grand Final against Hawthorn. Hawthorn led by just 10 points at 3/4 time but North managed only 2 behinds in the final quarter, as Hawthorn ran away with it comfortably. After 4 games, they just ran out of legs at the end of the 1976 Grand Final.
It was a breathtakingly awful spectacle to watch them resurrect themselves in the last quarter of 1977. They had irreplaceable, gun players missing (Melrose, Keith Greig) and still ran all over us at the end. Carman's absence is just an excuse, not an explanation.
To draw this back to the subject of 1981, Collingwood let the same thing happen as in 1977. At one stage, they led 10 goals to 6 - but managed 2 points in the last quarter as Carlton kicked 6 unanswered goals from late in the 3rd. The putrid last quarter performance looked a lot like the putrid last quarter of the 1977 drawn Grand Final.
You make some valid points but, on Carman, you can't help being injured but you can help not being undisciplined enough to thump a player behind play.
Yes I agree, the last quarter of the 1977 GF was awful but at least they gave a couple of yelps and even at the end, they could've nearly snatched the game. The last quarter of 1981 was worse. They didn't even give half a yelp.
Yes I agree, the last quarter of the 1977 GF was awful but at least they gave a couple of yelps and even at the end, they could've nearly snatched the game. The last quarter of 1981 was worse. They didn't even give half a yelp.
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doriswilgus
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stui magpie
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Interensting points in here.
My recollection is that the open chequebook didn't happen until the New Magpies came in and we went on a war with Richmond poaching players and paying big money to recruits.
In the 70's and into the early 80's our administration paid peanuts and had the antiquated attitude that players wanted to play for us, so we didn't need to pay. Didn't Tuddy and Thommo have a pay dispute with the club that resulted in both leaving?
77 through 81 we had good players, but the teams we played in GF's were more talented than us. We got ourselves into the GFs and into winning positions through sheer willpower but, much like 2002 and 2018, talent won in the end.
This year was an aberration. Despite not being the most talented team in the comp, we finished on top of the ladder and beat teams in finals with more talent than us, including in the GF. This wasn't relying on willpower however, it was system based. Players played roles, they knew what they had to do and trusted the system. And you know what? There's no reason we can't do it again next year and the year after because we don't rely on talent.
My recollection is that the open chequebook didn't happen until the New Magpies came in and we went on a war with Richmond poaching players and paying big money to recruits.
In the 70's and into the early 80's our administration paid peanuts and had the antiquated attitude that players wanted to play for us, so we didn't need to pay. Didn't Tuddy and Thommo have a pay dispute with the club that resulted in both leaving?
77 through 81 we had good players, but the teams we played in GF's were more talented than us. We got ourselves into the GFs and into winning positions through sheer willpower but, much like 2002 and 2018, talent won in the end.
This year was an aberration. Despite not being the most talented team in the comp, we finished on top of the ladder and beat teams in finals with more talent than us, including in the GF. This wasn't relying on willpower however, it was system based. Players played roles, they knew what they had to do and trusted the system. And you know what? There's no reason we can't do it again next year and the year after because we don't rely on talent.
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
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doriswilgus
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Sorry,Harrysz,I was being a bit melodramatic saying it was agonising going through these lost grand finals again,but it does make for some tough reading.It is very interesting to read though,and as you said even though it was painful,at least we’re premiers now,so it’s all good,Harrysz wrote:Doriswilgus I'm sorry if you find it agonising. That's certainly not my intention. I'm simply recording history as I saw/see it. I also believe that a premiership year is a good time to do it. As I keep telling myself" that was painful, but at least we're premiers now!"
Stui, Tuddenham went to Essendon after the 1971 season.
Kevin Morris came across from Richmond for 1978.
Ross Brewer, Craig Davis, Allan Edwards and Russell Ohlsen came in for 1979.
Allan Davis, Ian Low, Mike Woolnough and David Young came in for 1980.
Graeme Allan, John Annear, Warwick Irwin, Mark Williams and Michael Taylor came in for 1981.
Plenty of others came in - but those are the ones that came from pother clubs or interstate, in an era in which you could buy whatever player you liked.
Kevin Morris came across from Richmond for 1978.
Ross Brewer, Craig Davis, Allan Edwards and Russell Ohlsen came in for 1979.
Allan Davis, Ian Low, Mike Woolnough and David Young came in for 1980.
Graeme Allan, John Annear, Warwick Irwin, Mark Williams and Michael Taylor came in for 1981.
Plenty of others came in - but those are the ones that came from pother clubs or interstate, in an era in which you could buy whatever player you liked.
I’ve got to say, regardless of differing thoughts on Hafey, Carman etc, I find these GF memories an “ enjoyable “ reminder of those earlier eras. The 80s was my greatest love for the game. Not sanitised, not equalised, still tribal and the media / commentators reporting on it were true professionals. Also helps that I was still young enough to be getting a kick at a local level myself.
Appreciate the OP contribution from Harry, the detailed contributions from Pies4shaw and all others. These stories should serve as a somber reminder to everyone just how hard it really is to win a flag and also how much we should savour the 2023 premiership.
Appreciate the OP contribution from Harry, the detailed contributions from Pies4shaw and all others. These stories should serve as a somber reminder to everyone just how hard it really is to win a flag and also how much we should savour the 2023 premiership.
Gary Player “ the harder I practice, the luckier I get “
I disagree that we weren't the most talented team in the Grand Final, although I acknowledge Brisbane does have a lot of talent, but when you have players such as Maynard, Moore, Howe, Quaynor, Pendlebury, Sidebottom, DeGeoy, Daicos x 2, Hill, McCreery, Elliott, Hoskin-Elliott, Crisp and even Mihocek I challenge any AFL team to match that set of stars for talent. I think it just shows how hard it is to win premierships in that you need to have very talented players as a starting point then they need to be super fit and match hardened and the real trick is to have a culture that brings it all together for the group to play as a team as we all know a champion team will beat a team of champions.stui magpie wrote: This year was an aberration. Despite not being the most talented team in the comp, we finished on top of the ladder and beat teams in finals with more talent than us, including in the GF. This wasn't relying on willpower however, it was system based. Players played roles, they knew what they had to do and trusted the system. And you know what? There's no reason we can't do it again next year and the year after because we don't rely on talent.
Collingwood Domination. Envy of the Nation!
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stui magpie
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I get your point, but not many of those would have been open cheque books, more like open petty cash tin. Most were recycled role players or gap fillers rather than stars, Williams and (until injury) Edwards being the obvious exceptions.Pies4shaw wrote:Stui, Tuddenham went to Essendon after the 1971 season.
Kevin Morris came across from Richmond for 1978.
Ross Brewer, Craig Davis, Allan Edwards and Russell Ohlsen came in for 1979.
Allan Davis, Ian Low, Mike Woolnough and David Young came in for 1980.
Graeme Allan, John Annear, Warwick Irwin, Mark Williams and Michael Taylor came in for 1981.
Plenty of others came in - but those are the ones that came from pother clubs or interstate, in an era in which you could buy whatever player you liked.
@Boot, it's a very subjective thing trying to define talent across 2 teams. We disagree but you could easily argue either way and make a valid case.
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
^
Don't forget that Collingwood paid a fortune to recruit Graham Teasdale to Victoria Park. Unfortunately his knee was already shot before he got there. Another case of poor recruitment. The biggest miss from a recruiting point of view was the great Bernie Quinlan when he left Footscray to join Fitzroy. For the sake of a a rumored $5,000 Collingwood would have had him and if he had joined Collingwood under Tom Hafey I think it highly likely that he would have won a couple of premierships. Such is life, thank goodness Graham Wright is in charge of the football department now!
Don't forget that Collingwood paid a fortune to recruit Graham Teasdale to Victoria Park. Unfortunately his knee was already shot before he got there. Another case of poor recruitment. The biggest miss from a recruiting point of view was the great Bernie Quinlan when he left Footscray to join Fitzroy. For the sake of a a rumored $5,000 Collingwood would have had him and if he had joined Collingwood under Tom Hafey I think it highly likely that he would have won a couple of premierships. Such is life, thank goodness Graham Wright is in charge of the football department now!
Collingwood Domination. Envy of the Nation!