Israeli–Palestinian conflict

[slangman]

^ i agree both sides have committed barbaric atrocities but beheading children is something that i cannot reconcile.
That is not the act of just pushing a button, or lowering a mortar into the launcher. This is human to human interaction, looking into the eyes of the child whose life you are just about to end. That to me is beyond comprehension and without trivialising the other things that happen in war, this is the most disgusting and barbaric imho.
There is a special place in hell for the perpetrators of this nature.

So, not wanting to be cute about this but which barbaric atrocities can one reconcile? I ask because I think that's the nub of the problem. If only some such acts are viewed as completely unacceptable or beyond the pale, that inevitably leads to a taking of sides, doesn't it?

It’s not about sides to me it’s more about the most barbaric way of killing another human being that I have problems understanding.
Killing of any innocent people is always difficult to reconcile but the beheading of children is just beyond comprehension.
This is not about “sides” to me.
I truly hope that the article that David posted the link to is accurate.

[Magpietothemax]

^When wars break out against oppressed countries and oppressor countries, the oppressors always justify their crimes by projecting them onto their victims. Who remembers the 1990 Gulf War when Bush claimed that Iraqi soldiers were turning off the incubators of babies in Kuwaiti hospitals. This was subsequently proven to be an outright lie, but it did its damage at the time. It helped to justify a criminal bombardment of Iraq and the subsequent starvation of half a million children in Iraq due to economic sancitions. No one will ever forget Madeleine Albrights cold, sociopathic comment in an interview that the death of half a million children in Iraq was " a price worth paying".
As David has mentioned here, the Israeli government has refused to confirm that babies were beheaded by Hamas. This is because such a lie was even too big for the Israeli goverrnment to promote. They knew that the evidence was so great to the contrary that lies such as this - pretexts for genocide - would be rapidly exposed and would have disastrous political implications for them.
In any case, to base one's assessment of a conflict on the basis of how many children were killed in a single event, divorced from the history leading up to that conflict, and the subsequent developments which have led to the slaughter of hundreds of Palestinian children already by the Israeli bombardment, is profoundly flawed.

[David]

https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox- ... 2023-10-20

A Greek Orthodox church in the Gaza Strip which was sheltering hundreds of displaced Palestinians was hit overnight by an Israeli air strike, the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem said, and Palestinian health officials said 16 people were killed.

[…]

Palestinian officials said at least 500 Muslims and Christians had taken shelter in the Greek Orthodox Church of St Porphyrius from Israeli bombardments.

The Orthodox Church said in a statement: "The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem expresses its strongest condemnation of the Israeli air strike that has struck its church compound in the city of Gaza."

The Hamas-run government's health ministry said in a statement that 16 Palestinian Christians were killed in the incident.

Video from the scene at the church compound showed a wounded boy being carried from the rubble in the dark of the night. A civil defence worker said two people on upper floors had survived. Those on lower floors had been killed and were still in the rubble, the worker said.

Gaza's 2.3 million population comprises an estimated 1,000 Christians, most of whom are Greek Orthodox.

[David]

Research on Gazan views of Hamas:

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/pol ... -hezbollah

[Magpietothemax]

Claims by the Israeli army that it was a misfired rocket from Hamas that resulted in 500 deaths at the al-Ahli hospital in Gaza have been discredited, as reported by Al-Jazeera:

"Posts on X sent by Hananya Naftali, a digital aide to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, also aroused suspicion. “Israeli Air Force struck a Hamas terrorist base inside a hospital in Gaza,” he wrote, but the post was almost immediately deleted.

By 10:58pm, Naftali apologised on X for sharing “a Reuters report” that “falsely stated Israel struck the hospital”. He said he had since deleted the tweet. “As the [Israeli army] does not bomb hospitals, I assumed Israel was targeting one of the Hamas bases in Gaza,” he added.

The Israeli army also released a video with a recording of a conversation between purported Hamas officials, where they appear to talk about the misfired rocket that had caused the hospital blast.

Earshot said that a forensic sound analysis revealed that the audio was recorded on two separate channels, and then edited together, disqualifying it from being a credible source of evidence.

In its analysis of the audio, Channel 4 said it had found the call’s credibility questionable due to the syntax used, accent and tone of voice.

One journalist later asked Hagari at the press conference: “I’d like you to address the question of credibility, because … the [Israeli army] has a less than perfect track record with the issue of credibility”.

In his response, Hagari admitted previous shortcomings, but said that now was different."

ln the most recent development, Israel has warned that anyone still in North Gaza will be treated by the Israeli military as a "terrorist"

From Reuters:

"Urgent warning, to residents of Gaza. Your presence north of Wadi Gaza [a stream running through the Gaza Valley] puts your life in danger. Whoever chooses not to leave north Gaza to the south of Wadi Gaza might be identified as an accomplice in a terrorist organisation."

In other words, the IDF now gives itself carte blanche to murder anyone they come across when they launch the ground invastion of Northern Gaza.

[pietillidie]

^You wouldn't believe either party as far as you could throw them, so yes, it's possible.

Great info, David, which reflects the complications concerned which in turn reflect complications of identity. It also shows that Gazans begrudgingly accept protection, any protection, as any sane person would with a flaky Israel backed by a flaky US across the table.

Would anyone, absolutely anyone, put their life in the hands of a Netanyahu or the US given the history?

Reading between the lines, as suspected letting Saudi Arabia anywhere near the problem was and is a massive error, as is granting Arab primacy over any resolution given the Iranian and Shia cleavages. E.g., while Palestinians are overwhelmingly Sunni, Shia villages were dispossessed in 1948, with many fleeing to Lebanon, the Muslim population of which is now about 50/50 Sunni/Shia.

It's also easy for those outside Palestine and Lebanon, including Arabs, to have a dimmer view of Hamas and Hezbollah because their lives aren't on the line. While neither group seems especially loved, it's clear they are also tolerated in fear of having no protection or negotiating power.

There is no way knowing this gets resolved at the hands of major untrusted parties, whether be Israel, Anglo-America (having caused much of the problem), Saudi Arabia or Iran.

Frustrating. There needs to be neutral security, but none of the parties will believe anyone else is neutral. And while maybe even half or more of Sunni-Shia Muslims are willing to live together peacefully, it only takes 20% of crazies to undo everything (including Western interference for quick cash which includes the love-in with Saudi Arabia and fruitcake neo-cons, Israelis, Iranians and Russians).

You can only sigh. This is why I prefer to focus on our own fruitcakes and the fundamentalist psychiatry that drives that fruitcakeism.

[pietillidie]

This episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm was timely...or not! Hilarious:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1640882/

[David]

Audio analysis suggests the hospital was, in fact, hit by Israel:

https://www.channel4.com/news/human-rig ... -explosion

The most damning evidence is that the missile has been found to have come from the north-east (i.e. where the Israeli military is currently situated), not from somewhere in the south-west as the IDF claimed.

[stui magpie]

^

CNN investigation says otherwise.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/21/midd ... index.html

Also, the IDF held a press conference today with a number of international media where they showed them videos taken from body cameras from some of the Hamaas invading forces. Yes they decapitated babies.

[Magpietothemax]

I am sorry, but I have to reply to this post with indignation.
You are quoting the IDF as a reliable source of information???
It has already been proven that the audio quoted by the IDF as "evidence" was doctored...yet somehow you believe that whatever video CNN is now referring to, provided by the very same IDF, is believable?
This is equivalent to believing Hitler's propaganda during WW2. Atrocities against German populations in nearby countries were used by the Nazi regime as a pretext to conquer and then annihilate the population, especially the Jewish one. It is one of history's most bitter tragedies that it is now a regime, claiming to act in the interest of Jews, which is carrying out the same propaganda to justify ethnic cleanaing.
CNN is a propaganda conduit of the US government. THe US government backs Israel to the hilt. To quote such news sources as credible simply amounts to rubberstamping US propaganda.
How many babies has the Israeli army already killed in Gaza through bombing, dehydration, starvation, cutting out power?
I will leave it there.

[Morrigu]

[David]

[What'sinaname]

Tricky situation isn't it.

If Israel run out of ammunition / weapons, do you think their neighbours will remain good friends?

I also wonder what the world's reaction would have been if Ukraine had have retaliated against Russia and started razing Russian cities.

[David]

If it were a genuinely defensive stockpile aimed at preventing war with Iran or whoever, and Israel were at risk of running out of weapons for that purpose, I'm sure they'd be feeling pretty stupid about spending it all on blowing up apartment buildings and power stations in Gaza.

[stui magpie]

I am sorry, but I have to reply to this post with indignation.
You are quoting the IDF as a reliable source of information???
It has already been proven that the audio quoted by the IDF as "evidence" was doctored...yet somehow you believe that whatever video CNN is now referring to, provided by the very same IDF, is believable? .

Read the link.

The CNN investigation into the bombing wasn't done with anything provided by the IDF

The Video's from the IDF I referred to aren't mentioned in the article, it's a separate topic. As I said, they held a press conference in Israel and showed footage that can't be published as it's too graphic. It was referred to in The Heald Sun and a Channel 7 Journo was present at the meeting. https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world ... 3b07094ab0

2 separate thoughts in one post. maybe get your facts right before you get all indignant.