The gender pay gap

[Wokko]

Windbag is up there with knuckedragger amongst my favourite insults!

Economic crisis has been the excuse for decades for all this mad ideologically driven stuff governments do. Meanwhile youth unemployment and the wages gender gap don't seem to have changed much in four decades.

Myth. Doesn't exist. There are no jobs where a woman working in the same position for the same amount of hours earns less than a man. The only 'gap' comes from women making choices that lead into lower paying careers or making the choice to stay home and raise children.

Men would probably also like to have the option to take a career break to raise their kids while their wife continued building a career and bringing in resources for him and the kids but there aren't too many women willing or happy to do that.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina ... 73804.html

[Tannin]

Myth. Doesn't exist. There are no jobs where a woman working in the same position for the same amount of hours earns less than a man

On which planet is this? In which century? Using which chemicals? Bloody amazing that you can even find the keyboard with all that on board. Respect.

[Wokko]

Nice argument.

When variables are controlled there is no pay gap (or at worst a miniscule one). I linked an article from the unwaveringly leftist and feminist Huff Post that analysed a study on it.

Far more worrying is the education gap with women earning 20% more bachelors degrees than men.

[Morrigu]

I was talking in general not specific to the article posted hence the lack of quote.

I have read some of Hoff Sommers claptrap and have zero interest in anything she says or this topic frankly!

[Wokko]

Instead of pointing out you don't like the author, point out where she's wrong.

[HAL]

Ah, well in that case. That is something I haven't heard of.

[David]

Instead of pointing out you don't like the author, point out where she's wrong.

Agreed. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out CHS's angle, but I don't necessarily see her analysis as any less credible than some of the stuff that comes out of feminist academia. But that's perhaps a topic for another thread.

[Tannin]

David, you are responding to Wokko's insanity as if it was rational

[David]

No no, I also think there's a bit of smoke and mirrors when it comes to the gender pay gap, with the caveats that a) equal pay for equal work doesn't exist everywhere in the world as it does here and b) it is not evidence on its own of actual workplace discrimination, though that still undoubtedly exists to an extent in this country. It exists, but the reasons for its existence (i.e. whether it is evidence of systemic discrimination and disasvantage) are contentious.

Personally, I believe that most of the pay gap in this country can be put down to social enforcement of gender roles.

[stui magpie]

There's more than a BIT of smoke and mirrors on the gender pay gap issue.

Yes historic gender roles plays a part but if you start comparing hourly rates for people doing the same work, the gap suddenly shrinks.

[Tannin]

But it does not disappear, Stui. There is endless research demonstrating this, a mountain of data to demonstrate it.

Added to that, there is a massive bias in the way we value certain tasks. Jobs traditionally filled by female workers are grossly underpaid compared to other jobs that are traditionally filled by male workers, even when there is no objective justification for the disparity.

I'm not going to post at length on this, it's not an issue that impacts on me in any personal way, nor is it one that presses my buttons. I was just astonished to see Wokko's absurdly ignorant or mistaken comment. Mind you, Wokko also denies climate science and pretends that more guns reduce gun violence, so it's not as if, when it comes to flying in the face of the facts, he doesn't have form. Just the same, this was a particularly egregious error and I couldn't let it pass without flagging it.

Presumably, someone will drop by and provide the appropriate details, links to studies, and so on, in due course. Not that it will make any difference to Wokko's Fact Free Ideology Zone, I imagine, but at least we will have the facts at hand for those interested.

[David]

Added to that, there is a massive bias in the way we value certain tasks. Jobs traditionally filled by female workers are grossly underpaid compared to other jobs that are traditionally filled by male workers, even when there is no objective justification for the disparity.

I think this takes us into the territory one of the central feminist paradoxes. I'm sure it's one that many feminist writers have addressed in depth, though I'm not sufficiently well-versed in that genre to know for sure.

The problem is this: are these fields undervalued because they are seen as 'female' work, or are women choosing less valuable jobs in greater numbers than men because of a feminised gender socialisation that undervalues women's abilities?

This is far from a trivial distinction, and it's much more than an academic argument, too. It has a huge impact on policy: do you try to achieve equal gender pay by artificially inflating the wages of lesser jobs that happen to be currently female-dominated, thus entrenching gendered labour; or, do you try to increase female participation in all jobs and break down those gender barriers (and, gradually, the gender roles that caused the disparity in the first place)? The second option seems to make more sense to me.

[stui magpie]

The bias in how we value tasks is one of the things that seriously muddy the waters. the other is trying to compare part time female workers to full time male workers and claiming the females are underpaid when they're on exactly the same hourly rate.

That takes us into the other realm of how the female is more often than not the primary care giver for children and as such is more likely to do school friendly part time or casual hours, that then takes us into the argument about the "unpaid" work women do in the home.

All interesting topics in their own right but should not be bought into the debate about gender pay gap. That should be a simple comparison of hourly rates of pay for like work by gender. Do that direct comparison and if there is a gender difference across the board I'll be quite surprised.

[Wokko]

There was a study in Norway, one of the foremost countries concerning gender equality that showed that the more you create gender equality in choices available the more people drift into what would be considered 'natural' gender roles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5LRdW8xw70

Without watching it again I believe that video shows some of what I meant. Also shows some ideologues getting wrecked, which is always satisfying.

*edit*

http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/vie ... _in_norway

The video which may or may not be the same one but is the one I was looking for is linked from that article. Should've googled a bit more before posting

[David]

Thanks for the video, Wokko, will watch it later on.

In the meantime, here's an opposing view from The Conversation:

https://theconversation.com/defending-t ... -gap-37919