Israeli–Palestinian conflict

[Durka]

The video of his death, where he is sitting in a chair, waving a stick at the drone, looking like the Coyote which had just been blown up by the Roadrunner with TNT from Acme?

[David]

It's the symbolism more than anything – not hiding behind civilians or lackeys, just fighting back to his last moment even while injured.

Interpretation is more important than reality here, and I can only go on the reports I've read: that Sinwar is more popular now in death than he was while he was alive (when many Gazans quite understandably hated him for what he has done to them). Some more on why in this Financial Times article (screenshotted):
https://x.com/Newyorkist/status/1847701 ... 13/photo/2
https://x.com/Newyorkist/status/1847701 ... 13/photo/3

But none of this should be surprising, anyhow – in a culture that valorises martyrdom, it'd be pretty naive to think you can demoralise or intimidate through killing.

[Durka]

The more telling symbolism is the video of he and his family going down into the tunnels to hide, the night before they attacked the music festival, and his wife is carrying a $48k designer handbag.
At least we know where the aid money was going.
Nothing has changed since the Arafat days - although some of the many millions he knocked off from the Palestinians ended up here in Australia, and founded a very well known business.

[What'sinaname]

Interpretation is more important than reality here, and I can only go on the reports I've read: that Sinwar is more popular now in death than he was while he was alive (when many Gazans quite understandably hated him for what he has done to them). Some more on why in this Financial

"Innocent" civilians don't celebrate the death of someone who they despise. These innocents are Hamas supporters.

[David]

That's a perplexing comment. Are you saying that someone – be they Palestinian or Israeli or Australian, for that matter – who celebrates Sinwar's death forfeits their right to be classified as an "innocent civilian"?

One wonders what the term "innocent civilian" could even mean any more if you're going to redefine it that way. According to the Bible, after all, everyone is a sinner; perhaps that could be our new metric for deciding whether or not something constitutes a war crime...

[What'sinaname]

That's a perplexing comment. Are you saying that someone – be they Palestinian or Israeli or Australian, for that matter – who celebrates Sinwar's death forfeits their right to be classified as an "innocent civilian"?

One wonders what the term "innocent civilian" could even mean any more if you're going to redefine it that way. According to the Bible, after all, everyone is a sinner; perhaps that could be our new metric for deciding whether or not something constitutes a war crime...

By celebrate, I mean make them a martyr. I would expect tham to be happy that he was killed, not to suddenly be proud of his death.

[stui magpie]

^

From what I've read, a reasonable number of Gazan citizens are very happy that he was killed as they hold him responsible for the attack that triggered Israel to attack Gaza.

I'm sure there are plenty of others who have been sufficiently indoctrinated that they consider him a martyr. That's people.

[David]

That's a perplexing comment. Are you saying that someone – be they Palestinian or Israeli or Australian, for that matter – who celebrates Sinwar's death forfeits their right to be classified as an "innocent civilian"?

One wonders what the term "innocent civilian" could even mean any more if you're going to redefine it that way. According to the Bible, after all, everyone is a sinner; perhaps that could be our new metric for deciding whether or not something constitutes a war crime...

By celebrate, I mean make them a martyr. I would expect tham to be happy that he was killed, not to suddenly be proud of his death.

I see. Well, don't forget we have our war heroes too. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter, etc.

Personally, I find it best not to accuse too many people of thoughtcrime and, instead, focus on the people who actually do bad things (e.g. terrorism). Otherwise, refer to my second paragraph above.

[Magpietothemax]

Israel has just launched a strike on Iran.
According to Biden, this is justified because "Israel has the right to defend itself"
The consequences are incalculable.

[What'sinaname]

Israel has just launched a strike on Iran.
According to Biden, this is justified because "Israel has the right to defend itself"
The consequences are incalculable.

The Iranian leadership are cowards using proxies to conduct their warfare.

[Magpietothemax]

Israel has just launched a strike on Iran.
According to Biden, this is justified because "Israel has the right to defend itself"
The consequences are incalculable.

The Iranian leadership are cowards using proxies to conduct their warfare.

Stupid comment.
The US uses proxies everywhere:
Netanyahu government (the proxy of the US in the Middle East), Zelensky regime (the proxy of the US in Central Europe), ISIS (proxy US forces in the destablisation and war in Syria), Saudi Arabia (in the conflict in Yemen)....the list could go on.

[David]

What's clear, once again, is that Iran wants to do everything to avoid any direct confrontation between it and Israel – their public communications are signalling that they don't intend a further retaliatory strike, which shows admirable self-restraint given how much Israel are itching for a war.

[stui magpie]

^
Self restraint works both ways. If Israel badly wanted war with Iran, all they had to do was pick targets that would provoke them (like Oil or Nuclear sites). Instead they picked "soft" targets like the Missile Fuel places.

It's all posturing and face. Israel has retailiated, set back Iran's missile capability, they're happy.
Iran knew Israel would retaliate, taking out some soft military targets is a minor setback, they can claim little to no damage, they're happy. Both sides get a "win", now normal programming resumes.

[David]

Israel has just passed a bill to make UNRWA, the main provider of aid in Gaza, illegal. This is regarding unsubstantiated claims that a handful of employees took part in the October 7 attacks. Even if that's true, it's shockingly irresponsible to turn off the tap of an organisation like this in the midst of a humanitarian crisis.

If you don't fully see how callous this move is, imagine closing down a city's only hospital during a pandemic after one of its doctors was accused of misconduct. Even if you agreed in principle that the organisation was corrupt and needed wholesale reform, you might at the very least wait until after the immediate emergency was over – that is, if human life and wellbeing meant anything to you.

The legislation becomes effective within 90 days; it's hard to imagine that whatever Israel replaces them with, if anything, will be nearly as effective in providing food, water and medicine on the scale that's required, which means that this move is effectively a death sentence for an indefinite number of Palestinian civilians.

The Israeli government is counting on foreign leaders, and citizens, to give them the thumbs up (or at worst, helplessly shrug and move on), and they'll keep imposing cruelties like this for as long as they think they can get away with it without any changes to the country's diplomatic relations, trade arrangements, arms provisions or freedom from accountability under international law. Start putting pressure on them in any or all of those areas, on the other hand, and they might change their thinking on this.

[Magpietothemax]

David, you see things so clearly...until you suggest the antidote.

"Putting pressure" on any government today is a totally bankrupt perspective.
These governments are all literally pro-genocide.

They are pro-genocide not fundamentally because they are sociopathic monsters (although this is true), but because they represent vast class forces whose geopolitical interests lie in the annihilation of the Palestinian population in Gaza, and the replacement of the current regime in Iran with one that is subservient to the interests of both the Zionist regime in Israel and, primarily, to those of US imperialism. Their aim is domination of the Middle East, not just for oil but because of its critical geostrategic relationship to the territory of Russia, and naval transport and global supply chains.

You have to start drawing lessons.
Mass protests of millions across the world..for over a year, and all these governments just ignore them, and instead (in the case of Biden) shoot them down with rubber bullets and defame them as "anti-Semitic"

Israel is being backed by US imperialism. Harris has made clear that she will support Israel to the hilt, even more than Biden (if that is possible).

If we keep trying to "put pressure' on them, we are the ones slowly dying like frogs in a pressure cooker as the temperature gradually but relentlessly climbs.

The only way to break out of the pressure cooker is to search for a political perspective that does not seek to pressure pro-genocide governments, but instead aims to overthrow them.